So, I think we need a thread to contain it and have a more general debate as opposed to the earlier posted Drew thread which was aimed at Palin. So discuss on who you're supporting and their views/yours views etc.

This post was last modified: 10-21-2008 10:44 AM by Rawrmander.

I support Obama because my mom is one of those middle class moms just trying to get by when the economy is down and I can't get proper healthcare. Those are just some of the things Obama stands for. I haven't hear McCain mention anything about those issues.

The road we've taken in the past 8 years or so scares me, because I think after 9-11, some of the radical nuts thought we could go to "war" at the drop of a hat against anyone for whatever reason.

I'm afraid that if this continues we will see a draft in the country and many young people die for no good reason, while our own countries suffers and our schools crumble, health care becomes more of a privelage for the wealthy, and fear continues to overcome this great country. That's why I'm voting for Obama.

OBAMA

thats the only sane choice

but i could be wrong...my last two candidate have ended up on the short end of the stick

Obama all the way. McCain has some nice points, but i don't think America can afford another 4 years in Iraq. We need out now and Obama is the only one I see with any chance of that happening soon.

Besides, Sarah Palin isn't ready to be president. John McCain is getting up there in age and if something were to happen to him then we'd have her for President. And she just couldn't handle it.

Do what is best for you, and not what is best for the country? You think McCain doesn't care about the middle class? They both do (it's their largest voting segment), they just have different ways to handle it. I don't fully agree with their of their viewpoints, though. FYI Obama isn't giving you healthcare. Just children. And it's not free, expect more taxes. McCain has mentioned those issues; you just didn't hear about it. Seek it out.

I seriously doubt we'll see a draft, outside of the lines of a full out war with a major country. Our schools aren't crumbling, our healthcare is the best in the world and anyone making over $30,000 should easily have it. Anyone making less than that should consider getting additional education or should try searching for a new job. If they can't for whatever reason, they are sowing the seeds that they planted earlier in their life. I do agree that fear is causing us to trade freedom for security, but neither candidate wants to fix that.

Please try to debate when in the debate forum.

We're spending 5% of our GDP on military expenditures, including Iraq, which is normal or even a little low, so yeah, we can afford it. What we can't afford is your Democratic congress spending on every little thing in the world. FYI Obama's previous suggestions for Iraq would put us in a worse position than we are in now. There is a lot of good news coming out of Iraq right now (which is why you don't see it in the news so much lately), mostly because of the surge, which Obama heavily opposed.

He might get us out sooner, but at what cost? If we can get out cleanly (GOP's plan), wouldn't that be better? Wouldn't it be nice to have a haven for democracy in the Middle East, along with an ally and stable trading partner with oil? I, for one, would love to see a return of < $2/gallon gas.

Saying that Palin isn't ready to be number 2 is kind of like saying Obama isn't ready to be number 1, no? They both have limited experience and are more hopes and dreams than substance.

I'm definitely going for Obama. I agree with him on nearly all of the issues, and he seems like a likable guy.

With today's modern, constantly-updating world, we can't afford the next president to be out of touch. That includes not knowing how many houses you own, being computer-illiterate, planning on continuing a war that shouldn't have started, and calling the very real economic situation a "mental recession."

After the past eight years, we can't afford more of the same.

Yes, Obama is doing more for the Middle Class.  Go to Obamataxcut.com, or one of the several other sites, and you'll find making less than $80,000 leads to a significantly larger tax cut under Obama, that's a fact.

Obama's healtcare plan isn't only for Children.  Perhaps you should read it before discussing it.  It opens up the Congressional plan as an option for anyone without healthcare.  Not universal healthcare, but it's a great option.  It's a very good service, and it can't deny coverage.

McCain's plan would tax those with coverage from their employer, possibly causing them to cancel the coverage, making the people suffer more by having to pay for their own coverage.  The taxes from this go to the uninsured, but it will be a vicious cycle.

I agree.  The draft thing is a bunch of fear mongering.  

Our schools, however, are a different story.  My mother is an elementary school teacher in the city of Philadelphia.  She teaches first grade.  The schools are in dire need of money and resources.  Guess what?  Their federal funding has been cut since the Bush presidency, because of the "No Child Left Behind Act".  The school does not receive sufficient funding, because they under perform.  They have been declining year after year, as they have less resources.

Healthcare, no, we're not.  Our healthcare is horrible.  I'm so sick and tired of this patriotic attitude that "we're the best", and "Universal healthcare sucks, OMG FOX NEWS SAYS LONG LINES!!!!11"

France and Canada are far superior.  Most research is no longer done in this country.

The World Health Organization did a large research project, and the United States ranks 37th in the world, 37th!

WHO Rankings Info

For the last part, as a college graduate, who is still paying student loans, I won't even touch that.  I came from a divorced family, and it wasn't easy for me, had I not gotten scholarships, I could have never obtained the education I did.

First, McCain's "earmarks, porkbarrel, OMG", are worth even less.  120bn vs 18bn

And I still don't care about Iraq.  I don't give a #$%@, because that is doing nothing for us.  Obama was still right from the beginning, we should have never went in.  The man that attacked us on 9/11, the guy I want to get, still is free.  McCain said we would "muddle through" Afghanistan, when his boy Bush was gearing up to fix daddy's mistakes.



^^Proof, that democratic presidents are better at managing a budget.

Might I also add, a Republican Bush (whom McCain voted with 90% of the time) took us from:
-The greatest GDP growth of the entire 20th century, to an almost standstill.
-24 Million new jobs, to just 5 million
-Lowest income inequality since 1929, to the highest income inequality since 1929
-An average of $7,500 increase in salary from 92 to 00, to an average $1,000 DEcrease in salary from 00 to 08..
-All while inflation is at record highs

George Bush and the Republican congress (for 5 years), took 3 trillion dollar deficit (being paid off at 500 billion a year surplus), to a record $11.3 trillion deficit.  Nearly quadrupled.  

The proof is that Democratic presidents have been better for the economy.  Neo-conservative views have never been good for the economy, not during the Reagan years (people were greatly mis-informed voters then)

Again, misinformation.  Obama's plan is 18 months if all goes well.  He's for oversight of a gradual pull out as able.  It wouldn't be nice, because how long do you really think that will last.  My grandfather still says, "you'll never win a holy war, when people will die for their fight, and you won't, they'll win".  Pure and simple, the influence around them will eventually crumble them.  

Yes, I would like gas prices around the Clinton days, but this isn't the way.  I'd rather the focus shift to alternative, cleaner energy.  

Also, a note on relations.  The silent treatment hasn't worked, and even Cowboy Bush realizes this.  I like Obama's message of giving diplomacy a try.  I'd still rather keep my $120bn a year home, since Iraq has an $80bn surplus.

Palin, a governor of a 9,000 person town - meaningless.

Governor of a 600,000 person state, second to least populated, for only 18 months.

Obama was a state senator for 8 years, and US senator for 3, I know who I'd rather have.  Not only that, but let's talk about intelligence.  Palin took 6 years to get a bachelors degree from the University of Idaho.  (WTF!?).  McCain graduated 894 of 899.  Obama graduated from Colombia and Harvard Law.

Anyone who has seen Palin in the Couric interview knows she'd be a disaster.

Obama, from the senate, has knowledge on all of the current issues.  Palin really only knows about Alaska.  All of the things Palin has said recently proves this.  There's no denial how she trips over the most basic tax and foreign policy questions, just look at her interviews.  

Obama is knowledgeable about everything, just look at how he held his own in the Foreign policy debate, which was supposed to be McCain's strong suit.  (Polls indicate people think Obama won, especially independents.)  Even if he tied, he will win the economic debates with ease. Obama knows the issues 10x better than Palin.

Let's not forget, Biden can mentor Obama as president, and if something happens to Obama, Biden can step in.

Palin Foreign Policy Experience:  
I can see Russia from my house
Quick tour of world leaders

Obama:
US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, working with Joe Biden for the last 3 years.

If god forbid something happens to McCain, who is under Palin to directly help her?  I'd argue VP experience could be more important.

As for McCain, his temperament, and Cowboy attitude scare me. He reminds me, on foreign policy, of the first term Bush, not good. Obama shows more control and stature. Obama simply is more presidential, which is good.

McCain also shows irrational judgment, with Palin, which backfired now, and his latest political stunt, which made his poll numbers further plummet. Obama won the debate by a tie, and his lead may only grow, especially after last Thursday. There's a reason why he's up his biggest in the polls, and even some swing states he hasn't lead all year. The Bradley effect no longer exists since 1996, even in the south (look up the Harvard study). In this case, where the "other" white candidate is respectable, all racism is reflected in the anonymous polls. Barring something out of the blue, Obama will win comfortably, borderline landslide, and it just kills conservatives.

Bottom line, most people I know aren't better off now than they were 8 years ago.  The American dream is slipping, I know, as a young college graduate.  America's position in the world is laughable, mocked, and resented because of Republican cowboy attitude.

If I have children, and they are daughters, or sons, I want them growing up, not even hearing that Women still don't get equal pay.

Sarah Palin scares me, especially given McCain's health.

I'm a registered Democrat, and I just don't trust another Republican that voted 90% of the time with this one that screwed up the economy, and the war, and so I will again, vote down the line for the Democrats in my state of New Jersey.

Barack Obama and Joe Biden for President and Vice President.
Frank Lautenberg for US Senate
Rob Andrews for US House of Representatives.

This post was last modified: 09-27-2008 04:47 PM by sc7.

sc7 has made many good points (even though he did it with a wall-of-text jk)

I think Obama...I saw the debate last night and I saw more of McCain's thinking and it makes me hate him even more...I hate what he stands for...especially at the beginning if the election (while shaking his fist) "I will not rest until Bin Ladin is captured, even if it takes me 100 years!"   what a nutjob...And Palin!  She is totally out of her league and has no idea what shes doing!  SHE WANTS TO START A WAR WITH RUSSIA!!!   And after the debate last night on the news...Katy Kurric (I cant spell it) interviewed Palin last night and asked "what are some of the things McCain is planning to do and Palin replied "when i find them I'll give them to you" 3 interviewers (including Katie Kurric) said she was out of her league...it took people this long to figure it out?!?! So vote for Obama!

Spelling/Grammar check is your friend!

This post was last modified: 09-28-2008 01:21 AM by Rawrmander.

sc7 has made many good points (even though he did it with a wall-of-text jk)

I make tons of walls of text and yet nobody appreciates those. Everyone here apparently already has their opinions set and only cares about arguments that support their side.

sc7, you made some good points and I'd love to counter them, but I'm not sure I want to spend the time on it anymore!

I only wanted to mention that people should really stop using the "90% of the time" line, along with "more of the same." It's really old and completely misleading. It makes the speaker sound very uneducated (I had to endure a few times at a party last night).

The 90% figure, as I've said before, comes from issues that are mostly procedural. Obama votes with his party 97-98% of the time. That makes it look like McCain doesn't vote with his party much more often than Obama. McCain has a long history of giving the GOP trouble, voting against them, especially on some very big, very close votes where his tied it up or lost it for the GOP.

Yes, he is a GOP senator, but he's so much different than Bush that the comparison shouldn't be made. The GOP specifically chose a candidate that was different than Bush, due to Bush's current unpopular status. Obama is just such a left wing nutcase that it appears like Bush and McCain are closely aligned.

Just wanted to add this in, quite hilarious:

http://governor.mo.gov/cgi-bin/coranto/v...l=newsitem

(If you don't know the backstory, well, prosecutors were threatening to bring libel charges against anyone that criticized Obama... looks like he's getting an early start on his socialistic state, huh?)

Watched the debate.

Obama started strong. McCain came back with some strong points.

McCain has an uncanny ability to convert questions into statements.

Obama came out better.

I'm from Ireland; my opinion is unsalted

This post was last modified: 09-28-2008 04:05 PM by TheCosmicFrog.

I'm from Ireland; my opinion is unsalted

*salts Cosmic's opinion*

This post was last modified: 09-29-2008 10:01 AM by z6joker9.

....
*is from Canada*
*Didn't watch the debate*

*Doesn't think either of the two are worth a vote.*


*My opinion is unsalted, and better then everyone else's d:*
Kidding.


Bringing something out of the "Iraq" thread that might make more sense in here, the Wall St. Bail-out.

Someone mentioned that they're opposed of the bail-out and are hating on Bush and the republicans for it. You might want to read a bit more into it to see that the democrats are backing it as well. (Not that it's a bad thing, the Wall St. Bail out may be one of Bush's best moments)
So if you're still against it, might want to look for another candidate.
(Even if you're for it I'd suggest so.)

And the Bail-out isn't even as bad as a lot of people think.

All that to avoid a recession? Small price to pay. And in case you didn't know, Japan did the same thing in 2002. (and it's worked great for them. Sorta. Their ties with the US may cause their currency to slump, but no-where near as the threat in 2002.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7623779.stm

Yeah, I'm a BBC News type guy.

I was aware that the democrats were backing it because it was the only option at the time. When they wanted to vote on the plan, they didn't want the majority of republicans to vote against it putting all the blame on them for the plan. That resulted in this new developed plan which over 100 pages I believe and now both parties should have an even vote in favor of it by 1PM EST.

Of course the democrats are voting for it.. they are the ones that caused this mess

Here is a little video proof that shows they had a chance in 2004 (ultimate blame still goes to them, further back in time of course):

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/29/vi...c-in-2004/

This constant downfall started when the Repugs controlled both houses. Even the most conservative Repugs are admitting that the crash is related to deregulation, a Republican ideal...

Can't they just add a few 000s to the budget?

Nobody will notice... >_>

Rooster Wrote:

sc7 has made many good points (even though he did it with a wall-of-text jk)

I make tons of walls of text and yet nobody appreciates those.  Everyone here apparently already has their opinions set and only cares about arguments that support their side.

sc7, you made some good points and I'd love to counter them, but I'm not sure I want to spend the time on it anymore!  

I only wanted to mention that people should really stop using the "90% of the time" line, along with "more of the same."  It's really old and completely misleading.  It makes the speaker sound very uneducated (I had to endure a few times at a party last night).  

Obama is just such a left wing nutcase that it appears like Bush and McCain are closely aligned.

Okay let's back up. You want to complain about people having their arguments set already? When you are already completely set on the idea that you're right about Obama and yet you're telling me to care about other people's arguments?

And we'll stop using those lines when you stop with the whole 'only written two books on himself' and 'no experience' bull. And when you stop blaming the Democrats for everything.

And maybe America needs some different things. Clearly 8 years under Republic rule has not done the country a great deal of good. Perhaps all this 'socialistic' stuff is what the country needs to get back on its feet.

This post was last modified: 10-01-2008 02:01 AM by Rooster.