The Winner is....

Joker

seriously, does this point need to be argued further? No one is going to back down and admit that they are wrong so this is only an unneeded argument. Why continue it?

This post was last modified: 03-31-2008 05:00 PM by Rooster.

Obviously picking up an item isn't an automatic win, but depending on the item it could be an automatic loss of one stock. Which is a big deal (unless you play time matches, personally I hate them due to Sudden Death).

No, I don't claim that Zelda to Sheik is unfair because neither one of those characters has the power of a Final Smash or Golden Hammer. I'm fine with items so long as they are restricted heavily and healing items are dropped.

Depends what items we're talking here, if they can't beat Beam Swords and Fire Flowers. Yes, they have problems are lacking, since those items are essentially attacks that other characters are able to utilise anyway. Home Run Bat used to be one, but its practically ruined in this game due to the amount of time required to charge that fatal hit. However, when facing a character with a dominating Final Smash or a Golden Hammer what is one supposed to do? You can only stay airborne for so long and dodging on the ground isn't a surefire success.

I probably should specify now that after more experience with Brawl, some items are disgustingly broken. Some are fine, still don't wholly agree with them being on for a match your going to take seriously. But would be okay with it if the disgustingly broken ones are banished.

The characters vary enough to give the game less balance, items just further plunge that into the abyss.

Okay. I can see what you mean about one character and one stage, I've never been for that. Then we wouldn't have tier lists and we'd have several Final Destination clones.

I'm not going to state I can't handle items, I will state that if I'm facing someone with a Golden Hammer I will be at a severe disadvantage and facing a likely loss of stock.

I find beating someone with no items more satisfying because it was a completely fair match. No interferences, no advantages beyond what the other person is capable with when using a character.

Having items on in Brawl seems nearly as fair as a Marth vs. Bowser match from Melee.

But if you're Marth, just counter the Golden Hammer. They're not completely invincible when those are one. You can just spam projectiles and they'll be stopped.

And saying that you can handle items and then complaining about the broken ones pretty much invalidates your point.

What you're basically saying is 'I can win a match provided that I can predict everything the opponent is going to throw at me. As long as I know what their moves are, I can win. But throwing in a variable disrupts my strategy and i think it's unfair if I lose'.

The key is to avoid the items just like you'd avoid a smash attack or a special attack.

This post was last modified: 04-01-2008 10:56 PM by Rooster.

That isn't at all what he's saying. Broken items aren't an uncontrolled variable; they give more than just a competitive edge, they almost guarantee the loss of a stock.

Telling him to counter or avoid these items is useless, because they're broken for that very reason-- it's impossible sometimes. Add in to the broken items the randomness behind the drop points. You have no control of where they spawn. In too many matches an amazing item has spawned directly next to or on top of my opponent-- You have no ability to beat them to the item, how can one avoid or defense all of that?

I totally understand where he's coming from, but also I get Joker's point, and I think you were right a few posts ago when you said this point is rather unresolvable and beleaguering it is as pointless as trying to fight off someone with a golden hammer as Gdorf.

Thank you, skylinedfire.

Also Rooster, what if I was playing as my other main Samus. She has no counter, nor nothing with the ability to stop a Golden Hammer?

Anyway some items = broken. If I was to ever play with items in a serious match I'd merely request they be turned off. Haven't got a problem with the others.

a good competitive game is balance. with something as random as item drops I hardly understand the logic of a good competitive including items. I enjoy items in game when having fun, but when it comes down to business, it's skill vs skill.

as for which character I use the most, it's toon link. Still working out some of my timing issues, but he's feeling pretty nasty right now

I don't even play on FD.

Again, I don't like items because someone can be at 30% and still lose.

Having items on is like losing to someone that keeps bowserciding you. xD

And I just read through this post because its the shortest I CANT bother with the next not enough time.

items are fine. i enjoy playing with them, but the true test of skill is on a balanced playing field. That's why so many participate in MLG. They are obviously doing something right..

I promise that I do see your point.  You are saying that items make the game unbalanced.  I would that that items make the game more balanced.

Would agree that characters are all different, with different advantages and disadvantages?  

The game was made with the assumption that items would be used.  Unfortunately, when you turn this off, it places some characters at a natural disadvantage.  For instance, some characters, like Toon Link and Samus, have good speed and strong attacks, but no deflections/counter.  Others, such as Mario, may not have their range or power, but has a cape that greatly aides in items (ie normal) battles.  Yes, some characters play better without items.  However, it balances the game to have these items, as some characters need items to make use of their strong points.  The same is true for Final Smashes.  Some characters may have better Final Smashes to make up for other areas that they lack in.  Just because a (read: your) particular character does not play well with items does not justify turning them off (as it disadvantages another player).  In other words, leaving items on does not disadvantage your player, it just keeps things more balanced by not disadvantaging your opponent.

Again, the characters are all different, so why should items have the same effects for all characters.  All items do it throw in another variable that you have to adapt to.  Not doing so well with items?  Choose another character.  Block the item.  Hang onto a ledge.  Deflect the item.  Get the item first.  Attack the person before they can use the item.  Do ANYTHING other than to claim that the item made you lose.  Playing without items requires no more skill (actually, probably less) than playing effectively with items.  Again, I don't claim to be the caliber of player that many of you are, but I know well enough to have separate mains for item matches and non-item matches.

Some characters have a natural advantage/disadvantage on some stages.  Items are no different.  Just because you play the best with a particular set of options (for instance, stock matches with no items on a specific stage) doesn't mean you should force everyone to play you with those settings in order for them to claim they beat you "fairly".  What is fair about that?  If you leave items on, and set the stage to random, you'll win some, you'll lose some, but if you are truly better than the other person, you'll have more wins overall.  A great player should be able to play with any combination of settings effectively.  Otherwise, you're just an okay player that does great under specific conditions.

Changing the the default setting for items (on with medium frequency) is no different than changing the gravity, damage ratio, etc to suit a particular player's style and ability.

This post was last modified: 04-02-2008 09:50 AM by z6joker9.

I understand what you mean.

but we just have two different playing styles were used too.

Whenever we play we can have both types? Item matches and Non item?


one thing though.

I never considered myself good, I knew I was iight, but after facing so many people and beating them it makes one think there good. I never bragged before the game came out because I thought everyone was better than me, even WR, but that was taken down quickly..

Even on AiB, I beat people..I haven't faced that many people that just murder me, except Fuu :l. Everyone else its mutual. I win some they win some. Or just I win all. Only lost all once.

BUT, it does feel good on this site for people being so happy to beat me xD, since I once considered myself a nub. Now its all "Cloud's TL is beatable"

"JM:
i had to glitch my lag to beat cloud

he 5 stocked me in a 3 stock match" Even if not fake..
but yea. If anyone really wants to beat anyone here beat pesticide, hes a rapist in disguise. Im just a rapist.

This post was last modified: 04-02-2008 02:29 PM by Cloud.

The characters' I use can usally avoid golden hammer, Squirtle and Lucario can wall cling. Water Gun pushes them back, DDD has major air time, especially good for dodging Dragoons. Inhale has manny uses, Ivysuar and Charizard has their moves to stop certain items too. That's ust a couple of the characters i use. They all have their disadvantages too though.

a good competitive game is balance. with something as random as item drops I hardly understand the logic of a good competitive including items. I enjoy items in game when having fun, but when it comes down to business, it's skill vs skill.

as for which character I use the most, it's toon link. Still working out some of my timing issues, but he's feeling pretty nasty right now

Well Toon Link already has advantage >.>

Absolutely. My only concerns were that people would not feel "shorted' if they were beat in an item match, and item users were respected for using items effectively, rather than mocked for winning with them. Just so you know, when no one else is online, I've been playing CPU games without items to practice against what appears to be the preferred method for some of my buddy list.

Its not that I can't use items, I just find it..hard :l.

But I will learn.

I usually used items in Melee and I just learned as I played matches against Wiiloadians not to use them and sometimes forget to turn them back on in offline brawls d:

Com'on guys, how often does this actually appear?

IF it actually does, run like heck to get it first, or to kill the guy that gets it before he uses it. I smashed my little brother when he picked one up, but before he would swing it, which of course he fell off the stage and could not recover with the hammer in his hand. In this case, the golden hammer that he used got him killed!

You need another strategy you say?!?!?! Fine. One tactic that we've used in the past with great success is that when a hammer appears, and there is no way to get it first, and you're high in percentage and/or doubt that you'll be able to block it, JUMP OFF THE STAGE immediately. This way, you'll respawn and be able to use the brief invincibility to smash the hammer user just over the edge of the stage. He will not be able to recover because of the hammer, and you'll have negated the stock advantage that he would have gotten with the hammer if you had tried to flee first. If you were higher in percentage, you'll have even gained some ground.

I have plenty more, but you don't expect me to give away my entire bag of tricks, do you? Every item, in spite of giving the user an advantage, also creates a weakness of some kind. Figure it out, and exploit it. (Easy ones, they usually can't grab you with an item that needs to be thrown, or they become dependent on that item and want to use it so much that they do not play "smart", or focus too much on getting it first, allowing some easy hits on them while you position yourself to attack them while they go for it)

There are effective ways to fight/dodge/block/counter every item with every character. You guys have just never played enough competitive item matches to learn them. Instead, you just assume that it's okay to die when someone else gets a great item, and blame it on your opponent's good luck. That's why some people can play items, and some can't.

Wow I was gonna come in here and post the characters I use most.

Nevermind.

Meh.

Lucas.
Peach.
Wolf...


EVERYONE actually.

how can u use everyone the most lol.there has to be someone u use more ;p

I use D3 sometimes for fun.

Just practicin chain grabs.

Wolf is pretty awesome. His Short hop back A makes a devastating start to a combo. Actually pretty much all his moves are decent. His recovery could use work tho.
And I never get tired with the "whats the matter scared?" taunt. Its just.....awesomeness in 4 words...