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First of all, I'm sorry if I've ever made it seem like HD-DVD was "perfect".  That being said, I do find more issues with Blu Ray, and with the rampant Sony fanboyism that is prevalent in regards to Blu Ray's "superiority" since the beginning, I feel the need to point out that Blu Ray and/or Sony shouldn't be blindly supported.  We are here to choose the market, but Sony treats consumers as if we are around for them to forcefeed whatever proprietary crap they can come up with.  I take issue with Blu Ray because of association (my main criticism is with Sony), but I also give credit were due.  I have pointed out that the remote that Sony bundles with their Blu Ray player is top notch, probably the best default remote I've ever seen.  Unfortunately, that is about the only advantage I can find between my Blu Ray player and my HD-DVD player.  

I will also point out that Toshiba has done an excellent job pushing HD-DVD.  They started including a mail in rebate for 5 movies, kept player prices low (in spite of more capabilities vs Blu Ray players), etc.  They held a commanding lead until the PS3 acted as a trojan horse for the Blu Ray format, and pushed companies into exclusively deals.  Even now, HD-DVD has more stand alone players attached to television sets, but Sony leghumpers that scooped up overpriced PS3's have given Blu Ray an advantage.  At least Microsoft gave you the option of purchasing an HD-DVD player add-on, rather than forcing you to buy one just to play games.

My other point, which you shifted focus rather than attempt to retort, is that Sony is leaving the "valuable" early adopters in the cold, and they aren't even trying to be nice about it.  Once again, Sony is updating their players to bring them more in line with capabilities that HD-DVD had from the start, and rather than even act sorry that the loyal supporters of the format will be forced to upgrade to keep up to date, they act like they could care less.  Did I know that it was possible for better players to come along?  Sure, but so quickly, and the possibility that I might not even be able to PLAY the new releases?  At the very least, Sony's PR firm needs to do a better job on educating their workforce on how to address their customer base.  I didn't expect them to give me anything for free for purchasing their soon to be obsolete player (which is still being sold in stores), but I didn't expect to get a big middle finger from them either.

I don't understand, how are Sony even allowed to make BDs that don't play on older models, that's madness!

and:

Every lay person has had access to knowledge  about Blu Ray profile 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 for a very long time, and however other companies decide to make their products is not Sony's fault.

At some point "Sony" has to stop being the company everyone blames everything on, and let other companies take responsibility for their own lack of vision or follow through.

I supported HD-DVD 100% in the beginning, until they acted as if they weren't even supporting themselves.

I also think your mistaken when you talk about how Toshiba marketed HD-DVD so well.  I can walk into either of my Best Buy Stores or my 1 Circuit City store and won't see an HD DVD player on display playing anything at all and it's been that way for months and months.  I can go to the occasional movie theater and see an HD DVD promotion before the movie or rent a particular movie studio movie and see an HD DVD add, but that's it, otherwise it's been silent for me and those around me.

I also think if your going to make claims that some Blu Ray movies won't play on older systems you should probably source that info so we can all see it first hand.

Exactly like I mentioned earlier. Ask a person in public which they have heard of more. Blu-ray of course.

hey cosmic shouldnt you be telling gft and joker to take their argument to PM or something...i mean you have no problem telling me that, so go ahead

They aren't arguing. They're both just shooting out facts. They aren't attempting to catch the other out.

What I'd like to know is why Toshiba were so quiet about HD DVD until the moment they start to go down. With lack of a decent market structure any consumer product which seems daunting or "not quite necessary just yet" is destined to die. Sony have just begun seriously marketing Blu-ray on TV, whereas I haven't as much as seen a billboard for HD DVD. Another less meaningful point; does HD DVD sound to similar to HDTV in your opinion? Yes on one hand it promotes synonymousity, but on the other it could intimidate ill-informed consumers. Opinions?

Sorry guys, I'm about to go out for the night so I doubt I'll post anything substantial until tomorrow, but I just wanted to point out that I never said current BD players won't be able to play 2.0+ discs, I just said it was a possibility that they might not. At this point, it's confirmed they will not have all of the features that a consumer will pay for, which quite honestly, isn't that big of a deal to me, but they have not officially announced, to my knowledge, that movie playback on newer discs will be 100% either. I have seen that they will be stickering 1.1 and 2.0 discs to let the consumer know which is which, but if 2.0 discs play the same as 1.2 but without the extra added features, I'm not sure why that would be necessary. Again, what bothered me is not so much that Sony is finally implementing a protocol that they have been lacking, it is their treatment of loyal early adopters that had concerns regarding it.

Again, I'm speaking as a Sony consumer, not a HD-DVD loyalist. In fact, I'm about to watch Crash on BD with my friend when she gets here. I'll have more tomorrow!

Great to hear your input as always Joker, even if you do double post a lot (although you can afford to when you pay for a website worth 1.5 million Ugandan Dollars)

HD DVD had huge potential but IMO it was squandered by the two companies who jointly pushed it out and that was Microsoft and Toshiba so they have to be responsible for their issues and we can't blame other companies for their loss.

gawd dammit, i have to buy another copy of star wars now

Every lay person has access to almost all knowledge, thanks to the Internet.  Are they expected to know everything about everything they purchase?  I have to tell you... the vast majority of people do not do research before they purchase something.  They go to the store, talk to the associate, and use them as a source for information.  I doubt that many employees knew, cared, or wished to tell the consumer about these "profiles" for fear of losing the sale.  Is this is the consumer's fault?  Maybe, but I never said it was Sony's fault.  However, can you think of a previous movie format that refused to work on older versions of that format's player?  Perhaps a dual layer DVD, but those weren't extremely common, and by the time they hit store shelves, much cheaper DVD players were around.  On the other hand, virtually all new discs will be 2.0, and the new players are expected to be in the $600 range.  What is Sony's fault is that they rushed to the market and released a buggy and premature Blu-Ray profile, and then when customer's complained, they acted if they could care less.  As I've said before, that is not the way to handle a your loyal base.

I've had this discussion before.  There are several ways to market a product, and the number of advertisements in your area is not a good indicator of what well a company is supporting themselves.  If that was your "main" reason for going from supporting HD-DVD 100% to 0% and then shifting to defend Sony without revocation, then you should probably rebuild your debate.  You are right, though, it seems like Blu-Ray supporters support Blu because of marketing, or the fact that they bought a PS3 and have to justify the outrageous price tag.  The HD-DVD supporters generally support HD-DVD because they believe it is the "better" format in quality, rights management, etc.  BTW, Toshiba has been marketing by keeping prices much lower.  Enjoy paying higher markups so that Sony can run more advertisements to you!

If you don't mind, could you tell me exactly why you support Blu-Ray so much, other than the fact that you think they advertise more?

Strange.  I can go into my Best Buy and Circuit City and I see both HD-DVD or Blu Ray on display.  I find plenty of both players on sale, along with equally sized sections of movies for each one, and literature on each.  I see promotional material for both, including the 5 free movies.  Either way, do you think Toshiba controls the marketing of their products within stores?  The only way they can have an impact is by choosing a higher MSRP.  As it stands, HD-DVD has consistently held lower markups, which perhaps gives your local store incentive to push Blu.  I know that was the case a year ago, so I can only assume that nothing has changed with Blu Ray players still commanding a price around double that of HD-DVD players (yes, Sony's cheapest drops to $299 on occassion, while Toshiba's drop to the $160 range).  Again, enjoy those markups!  That's Sony for you.

BTW, most of my facts are from articles I've read in the past, and it's generally not worth goign back to look for it.  I do remember, however, a big deal about the whole "Best Buy is pushing Blu Ray because of higher markups, and they were told not to compare BD and HD-DVD directly" articles floating around.  I can also remember HD DVD going through huge ($100+ million marketing campaigns) over a year ago.  On the other hand, it looks like you are using what you see in your area as a good indicator of the market as a whole.  Perhaps Sony targets your area and the television shows you watch based on you fitting their target demographic?  Again, nothing was squandered, HD-DVD held a commanding lead in players and movies sold until the trojan horse (PS3), which put millions of players in homes.  A risky movie by Sony, but it seems to be paying off.  What was Toshiba supposed to do?  Go back 8 years, release an outrageously popular video game system, then wait 7 years and release an overpriced sequel with the capability to play the DVD forum's HD disc format of choice?  Again, it's not that Toshiba and the HD-DVD group isn't advertising, it's that Sony has already sacrificed their crown jewel to see that their newest proprietary format gets adopted, and they stand to lose A LOT if it fails.  You have no idea how big of a deal this is to Sony, because the PlayStation brand and the profits associated with it is withering, and they need a new large source of income to maintain their market share.  That is why you are getting blasted with advertisements.

If by double posting, you mean restating my facts and points, then yes, I find that I have to because they are consistently ignored, sidestepped, and redirected.  In fact, unless any of my points are retorted, or new points made, I doubt I'll reply to this topic again.

Buddy I was just joking around, don't worry. And I've been reading all of your posts intently considering you're the man who owns and experiences both formats, unlike anyone else in this thread

Don't worry, I wasn't attacking you (or anyone else), just stating why.

ya know i really thought porn would put HD-DVD over the top...this may be the first time porn has let me down

The porn industry is also going Blu Ray. They've said their customers demanded it. There should be a thread about that in tech also.

i was referring to when bluray originally said no to porn and HDDVD said 'come on in' i thought that would be the catalyst to winning the war

ooops